Holiday Co-Parenting and Custody Schedule Solutions

Unlock the secrets to harmonious holiday co-parenting with family law expert, Gloria Marchetti-Bruck, Esq. as we navigate the complexities of shared schedules.

Gain valuable insights on preserving cherished family traditions while ensuring fair and flexible arrangements for both parents. From Thanksgiving dinners to religious celebrations like Hanukkah and Eid, this episode promises strategies that prioritize your children's experiences and maintain the essence of your family culture.

Key Takeaways:

• the challenges of co-parenting during the holidays and how to build a cooperative co-parenting environment
• creative solutions for custody schedule's that prioritize your children's enjoyment
• practical advice on ensuring communication and consent for travel during school breaks

Gloria offers her expertise on maintaining flexibility and fostering cooperation, ensuring that both parents can be part of memorable moments without disrupting the fun.

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Transcript

Mike: 0:02

This is the brief. I'm sharing lessons from years in the courtroom, representing parents and couples on custody battles, co parenting, mental health, finances, and more. After 20 years as an attorney, I'm also bringing true war stories from the courtroom to empower you with solid and straightforward advice. I want to help you become a better partner and parent and be here anytime when you need it the most. Hello everyone. And thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the brief with Mike Kader. This week's episode is going to be very interesting. Telling convenient and timely based on the holidays right around the corner. I'm excited to introduce this week's guest, Gloria Bruck, a local attorney here in Westchester County that practices in all three family courts. I've personally seen Gloria in action and I tell you, she understands it. She gets it and she knows how to work with high conflict parents. So let's get into it. Gloria, thank you so much for coming on the brief.

Gloria: 1:10

Well, thank you for that lovely introduction, Michael. Happy to be here.

Mike: 1:14

You want to tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself?

Gloria: 1:18

Sure. I've been a lawyer now for about 30 years, 25 of which has been pretty much focused on family law issues. I also do appellate work in connection with family law issues, but that has been my practice concentration now for quite a long time. Prior to opening my own practice, I was with the West Chester County Attorney's Office, where I did both litigation and I was in their Family Law Bureau. There we handled abuse and neglect cases, court cases, J. D. Cases. But then when I started my own private practice, I really started zeroing in more on custody and visitation.

Mike: 1:59

Thank you so much for that. So it's important that our audience knows that we're talking with somebody who's who's not only a skilled courtroom attorney, but a litigator and appellate practice. Thanks for sharing that, Gloria. It's almost crazy that we're approaching middle of November. So, you know what that means, right? You know, the holiday and the cinnamon and the pumpkin spice are going to be literally in everything that we see. And simultaneously, what normally happens, as you know, as when we practice in family and matrimonial are the order to show causes, the holiday schedules, it's my year, it's your year. And what I want to be able to do is discuss. Situations where parents could work potential disputes out for, you know, not only just Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up or New Year's, but other holiday school breaks throughout the year. And every year thereafter, generally speaking, you know, when I have my clients, you know, I always describe as the major holidays, the Thanksgiving break, Christmas Eve, Christmas day, because as we know, certain both days are important for different, various reasons, New Year's Eve, New Year's day. And more recently, particularly with my, uh, Hispanic clients, three Kings day. We have, there's the winter break, correct? And the spring break, which sometimes overlaps with the Easter or, uh, uh, Jewish holidays. And then. We have summer break. Are there any other major holidays that I've overlooked?

Gloria: 3:29

Well, you know, I don't think you've overlooked them. I think that it's, it's funny because the holidays are very specific to each family, like you talked about Three Kings Day. So what I like to do is when I'm representing a parent in these proceedings is just to find out what historically their family likes to celebrate. Some people, it works out well, because they've always celebrated Christmas Eve and that's their big holiday. That's where they do the bulk of their celebrating and. Then, you know, the other parent has always wanted to do Christmas day. So sometimes it works out neatly in addition to Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's and things of those nature. We also have the summer holidays. Some people are very big on the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day. I kind of group those. three together. You know, it's just very specific to each family. And I think one of the things that you try to reinforce when you're trying to work on a holiday schedule is sticking to what's important to you and also what the children have, you know, experienced when Either, you know, the family was intact or just historically during their lives, because kind of reinforcing those family traditions, I think, is what we all try to do. They're used to being at dad's on New Year's Eve and his extended family does a big thing. You know, it's nice not to try to say, well, why don't we just alternate? You get Christmas Eve, you get Christmas day and we'll switch on and even you try to let the family come. To the resolutions that come naturally for each family.

Mike: 5:09

That's very good. And you mentioned something important, particularly with the religious holidays. There are certain, uh, Jewish holidays in December. Sometimes, you know, we have a Hanukkah or a holidays beginning of the school year, the young Kapoor and such what's been coming up more, particularly with my clients that are Muslim, that practice Islam, which is, uh, you know, We have the Ramadan holiday and the eight holidays. So while they're not considered major holidays, they're major for that particular family.

Gloria: 5:34

And I think with things like Hanukkah, you know, in Rosh Hashanah, and there are a couple of additional days that you have to work with. They're usually a few day period. So, you know, you can, you can share some of those holidays. One will get the first three nights, you know, the other parent will get the remainder of the Hanukkah. And I think it's, it's nice to again, go back and see what the family has done. Do they have a big meal on the first night? Do all their relatives typically get together on the second or third night? It depends. So I think it's important to understand how each family has been operating.

Mike: 6:15

I always have a saying with my client, you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Gloria: 6:19

Exactly.

Mike: 6:20

What is it that You guys normally do. How do you normally celebrate or observe? And sometimes and I say it's very rare where it's perfect for both sides. Usually they find a common ground and then they disagree about a couple of issues. So what I always try to do and I'm Gloria again, I've seen you. Let's focus on where this common ground and then where there's disagreement. Let's get to that compromise.

Gloria: 6:46

Right. I mean, otherwise it goes on and on forever.

Mike: 6:49

Yeah, correct. And the holidays come and went and no one really got to enjoy it because they're bickering over odd year and even year and what time is pick up. Exactly. And

Gloria: 6:57

whose year it should be this year.

Mike: 6:59

Yeah. I always say that as attorney we're hired for a specific task. You know, the judge ultimately will still order an agreement and if they have to, they'll make the decision. But ultimately I always encourage in all cases, Settle and when you settle, it guarantees you you're going to get something you like. You may give up something that you want, but at a minimum, when you talk settlement, you're going to get something that you could live with as opposed to having lawyers and a judge decide during a trial where you might not get anything that you like, you know, and that's why statistically, I believe most cases do settle. That's the reality of it. But

Gloria: 7:41

I also find that parents. Embrace a settlement more than a. Embrace a schedule that's being forced on them. You know, it's it's nice even in the darkness of trying to navigate in family court your life and have other people involved. Because, as you know, you and I get involved in a very discreet, specific. Moment in time, but these people have been living their lives and raising their family for a very long time. And then we're all jumping in. It's nice when you can come to a settlement because they feel like they've maintained control over deciding major things for their own family rather than. Having a judge sit there after all of the attorneys make their arguments with something that doesn't feel like it's theirs. It's not personal. It's something that's being thrust on them. Some might some might feel like they won and they're happy with it, but there's a winner and there's a loser when you come to those. Thresholds during these proceedings and even if one parents one, you know, you don't really win because then you're dealing with a very disappointed other parent that you have to co parent with and, you know, those feelings kind of resonate in the time that's being spent with the children because they, they know when a parent's not happy,

Mike: 9:02

kids are smarter than we give them credit for. You know, they just have that sense where something's not right. You know, they might not know the exact details, but they could say, Hey, you know, mom and dad are bickering about something and, you know, it's important that while you're negotiating that you don't get the children involved or more importantly, make the children messengers, you know, like I'll literally, you know, figuratively, I would literally want to poke a client's out. Don't have your child become the messenger about. Pick up and drop off

Gloria: 9:30

and do that to a child. It's terribly, terribly stressful. What I find and it

Mike: 9:35

happens a lot is so, for example, Thanksgiving, how would you handle when both parents want the same day? So Thanksgiving might be a little off because it's 1 particular day, but, you know, for example, Christmas Eve or Christmas Day and many times I'll speak to clients and well, We celebrate on Christmas Eve. Therefore I want every Christmas Eve or on the flip side, we open up gifts every Christmas morning. So I want every Christmas morning. How do you normally handle that when you get one? I don't want to use the word unreasonable, but a client that's set on their ways and not looking to be flexible. What would you recommend? Well,

Gloria: 10:15

I mean, that's always hard, you know, flexibility makes our jobs a lot easier. I usually try to appeal to, you know, looking at it through the eyes of the child. Don't you think that your son or daughter would prefer to have an opportunity to spend holidays with each of you? It depends again on the family. I think it's hard just to share Thanksgiving Day, unless somebody is eating a big meal in the morning. It's a lot because you're also transitioning the child from one house to the other. I think that alternating on and even often works really nicely. You know, one parent who's not getting Thanksgiving Day that year can get the day before Thanksgiving or the day after Thanksgiving. But they're going to have it the following year. That just happens in life. Like my kids are a little bit older, two of them are married and they alternate me now. The parents get alternated on. My son's this Thanksgiving because it's, it's my daughter in law's family's turn. You know, everybody has to understand we can't just split people in half. I think it's, it's nice when you can try to get a parent to agree, you know, especially if exchanges are complicated and. Somebody's going to be late because, you know, grandma couldn't get downstairs fast enough to say goodbye. And then you've got a contentious exchange. It's like, look, let the holiday be, in my opinion, unless I have two people that come to me and go, no, I'm totally happy. You can have the child from nine to three. I'll pick the child up and we'll do a meal. We live. Two minutes from each other and all this other stuff. Great. If you're not traveling to go do it at someone else's house and all that other stuff, maybe it'll work again. For me, it comes back to what can I expect these two parents to reasonably be able to put in place in order not to make this terrible for the child. And that's my AFC voice. If I have a client that's very insistent, I'm going to try to advocate my client. He or she tells me. The family has never celebrated Thanksgiving in the 15 years that, you know, our child has been on this earth. I'm going to question why that parent all of a sudden is really being so insistent on Thanksgiving.

Mike: 12:33

And you mentioned a point, like, I've had a couple of cases where they literally divide the day, you know. We eat our Thanksgiving, you know, early afternoon and the other parent eats at, you know, Later in the evening, and I think that the Thanksgiving holidays is literally more than just turkey stuffing and, you know, and corn on the cob. It's the experience. I always give my opinion to my client privately, but I always try to say 1. let's be fair because and every year, whatever we agree to, even if you don't, you're going to get it the next year. So sometimes what I try to do, and again, specific based on distance, assuming they're in the same community, same neighborhood, they're not too far of each other. I always say, let's define what Thanksgiving break is. So we always know Thanksgiving is always that last Thursday. What about if we say, you have, Thanksgiving starts that Wednesday after school, all day Thursday, and then until Friday, you know, 12 p. m. That way, that child could have that time, you could do some planning, and then, okay, you're not going to have them that Thursday, but here's what's good. The following year, you're going to get that same exact time. It doesn't mean you can't speak to them. Doesn't mean you can't have a call with them. You know, it doesn't mean you can't do a, you know, FaceTime with them. And I said, and I'm willing to bet you the kids, they like that continuity of doing everything. So that's something that I always try to recommend. Just, you know, don't divide the day, start it from the Wednesday, you know, after school until like Friday. 12 PM, for example. And then whoever has the child that normal weekend. So whoever's weekend, it is assuming there's weekend visits that just continues as forward. Sometimes the parent that had Thanksgiving, it's their weekend also. And I said, listen, you know, and I got a call last year. It happened to like, hold on 1 second. But that means they get the child Wednesday after school, Thursday, Friday. Yeah, because this holidays plus it's their normal weekend. And I said, I got news for you. Eventually it'll happen. You know, I don't want to program. I can't look a year or two years, but eventually that will happen to you. And you're going to get that four or five day weekend.

Gloria: 14:39

Right, and I think it's nice for something like Thanksgiving where it usually starts to end a little earlier the Wednesday before and it does run through Sunday. So you have several days to play with some time there. So even if you're not getting the day, even if it's not your weekend, maybe you can compromise and just look at the whole Thanksgiving weekend as a holiday. So, this way, the parent who's not getting the child on the day can be assured that even if it's not their weekend, they're still going to have some weekend time that's connected to that holiday to enjoy it. You know, particularly if extended family is in from out of town, like you said, it's not just about sitting down for that 1 meal. It's usually just more of a celebration, a family, which doesn't necessarily have to occur on that precise day. I think one of the things I find a little more challenging is something like Halloween. You know, we just ended Halloween and Halloween is a very adorable holiday when you have young children. It's very, I still enjoy it all. I loved it. It was my favorite holiday, but it's a lot less time to work with. Kids do not, if it falls on a weekday, They're not getting the day before or the day after off of school. They're not getting that day off of school. So you're looking at school age kids where it's from after school until maybe eight o'clock. So to try to share something like that becomes really complicated. Cause you're talking about four or five hour window and it was the holiday like that, you know, ultimately the kids. Wanna spend it with their friends and their peers. So there may be one parent that's able to facilitate that better than another parent.

Mike: 16:27

Gloria, you mentioned something great. So Halloween, we know it's only one particular day, it's not a long holiday. And the children, as they get older. While they enjoy Halloween, they enjoy it with their friends. Just this past, you know, I have a, my daughter, she's 14 years old, loves Halloween, but she wanted to literally spend it with her friends.

Gloria: 16:45

Oh, she's not spending it with you. No,

Mike: 16:47

no, she goes, dad, you know, we're good dad, but you know, I got my own plans now and I could see what my two sons, that's starting to develop. And many times what we just do with Halloween, because again, it's really that, particularly if it falls on a school day, you've got that five hour window, maybe. I always look at what's the relationship between the parents. Is it high conflict? You know, if it's high conflict alternating, you know, one parent should have a few hours or sometimes if they're literally in the same neighborhood, maybe, you know, one parent could see them for an hour or two. So, you know, it's specific, but it's totally legitimate for both parents to have the Halloween experience with their children and just because it's a small window, it's hard. In most cases to split it. So, you know, my default is, okay, let's alternate it each year. But again, by the time, you know, they get into those, that 13, 14, 15, they don't want to spend it with mom and dad. There's

Gloria: 17:43

a short window for that, but. You're right, because by the time, you know, people underestimate how much time it takes to get kids to stop what they're doing, get into a car, travel to an exchange, get them out of, I mean, it just interrupts. So we may be talking about 4 or 5 hours, but by the time you do the exchanges, that also takes out a chunk and good luck telling an 8 year old. Who's in the middle of trick or treating, that's it. Time's up. Get in the car. They're going to be really upset.

Mike: 18:14

I told my 11 year old was okay. You know, it's time to go home. He goes, okay, you could go home. I want to do, you know, I want to do this street and I'll come home. So they develop a personality.

Gloria: 18:25

The same thing happens with the birthdays. Everybody wants to spend time on the birthdays. Sometimes a birthday falls on a school day for school age children. And again, it's really hard to kind of split that time. Usually, I think it's nice to try to do 2 hours, 2 hours, because the reality is few people actually plan the birthday party. If they're inviting other Children on that particular day, it's usually like the Saturday or the Friday or the Sunday after. But yeah, you know, you only have so much time in a day and sometimes to really be able to enjoy it carefree and fully without the stress and pressure of knowing you have to run to an exchange is just to alternate it.

Mike: 19:12

Another great point. I don't just Halloween the birthdays. And what what I find is again being a parent of semi young Children is even when their birthday falls on a weekday. Usually what I found in our experience is that you do something on the weekend. You know, you have the play dates or stuff. And what I try to put in orders when it comes to the birthday. And again, everything depends on the relationship with the parent. If you're going to take anything away, it's important that the healthier communication you have with the other parent, the better and easier would be to discuss and alternate Halloween, Christmas, and Thanksgiving. But what I always try to do is the non custodial parent. You try to carve out a specific time for, at least for them to come and exchange a gift on that day. If it's like on a weekday, maybe right after school, for example, you know, the non custodial for hypothetical that dad doesn't have a visit that day. Dad shall have, you know, two hours or maybe two and a half hours after school. with the child, you know, to explain and maybe have like dinner or something like that. But again, the other parent has to agree to that. And the healthier the communication is, the more respect there is, the easier it is to get an agreement. Sure.

Gloria: 20:34

And the schools also, like, for something like Halloween, it's not just the trick or treating after. A lot of times, the schools will have, like, little Halloween parade or something like that, that the parents can attend. So I think for something like that, there's no reason both parents, even if it's not your year, both parents should be able to attend that. If there's some kind of little cupcake celebration for children in school or something like that, You know, like when my kids were going through school, you brought in a little cupcake and one of the parents got to read a little story time to the kids, like wherever there are opportunities to like celebrate a child like that, I think both parents should be able to attend and it opens up more opportunities to celebrate it, even if it's not in a year.

Mike: 21:21

Absolutely. I kind of put in all orders. That both parents have access to extracurricular activities, school events. The custodial parent will list a non-custodial parent for things along those lines. And I think it just raises a healthier child when he sees both parents are at these, I don't wanna refer him to as milestone events, but you know, these happy events in school where he sees mom and dad and they're not bickering.

Gloria: 21:46

Right. Well, that's a biggie. You know, you have to make sure there aren't orders of protection. You have to make sure you're not opening up this child to a scene at their school. You have to know the parties that you're working with. You know, if they've never had an exchange that's gone well. Well, you know, maybe having both of them, you have to think about it. Because you don't want the child being placed in the middle of anything. But I think for the most part, parents are able to hold themselves together for an hour or so while they're in public on behalf of the child around other parents, whether it be at a ball game or something else, for the most part, parents have been able to do it. I haven't had a ton of occasions where it's blown up. So I have faith in people in that respect.

Mike: 22:35

Through the years I've had maybe, you know, Isolated issues where there was like an outburst or a disagreement in front of the sports team or and I tell a parent listen Everything that you say particularly if you're in a school setting or a sport one You're probably gonna embarrass your child and there's gonna be a record of it somewhere particularly if it's in the school setting Is that something that you want? So be on your best behavior sometimes bite your tongue just smile take the high road. Enjoy the moment And discuss it with the parent after not in a classroom full of

Gloria: 23:07

children will pull away as children get older and their voices carry more weight. Children do remember that a parent embarrass them in front of their friends in front of their peers in front of their teachers or coaches. You're not only it may feel good in the moment to vent, but the children, they don't forget that. And so you're doing damage to your relationship with your child because they don't forget. And once you get that reputation with your child that they're not confident, that you're not going to embarrass them in front of the people that they need to, to be around all the time, that's going to be damaging to that relationship. Kids should feel certain. That parents are not going to embarrass them by having a fight with the other parent in front of their peers. That's, that's something that's going to blow back on that parent. If that parent can't control himself.

Mike: 24:05

Gloria, well said there's tons of cases. You know, I just had something in, uh, the family court where the child was 12 years old and he goes, listen, I love that we have a great time, but just sometimes the way he acts. Makes me uncomfortable.

Gloria: 24:22

Yeah. It embarrasses them. Kids don't want to be embarrassed. It's the very last thing they want to be. And if they can't trust a parent not to embarrass them, they're not going to want the parent at the school.

Mike: 24:34

So remember that parent, you know, even though they're young, they have their feelings and if you're disputing or have a disagreement with the, with the other parent, which is normal, disagreement is normal, how you handle the disagreement is what's key.

Gloria: 24:48

Right, and if you do have a disagreement and you have given it a try and you don't feel that it's well suited to your family or the relationship you have with the other parent, you come into the family court and you say, you know, I think we need to work out a different schedule or we need to tweak this because it's leading to situations and incidents that I'm concerned is not in the best interest of the child. You know, there are situations where one parent can't control what the other parent is doing. So you take a look at a case like that and you think, well, these are not two parents that really can, can be in the same room right now. I mean, we hope that's not the case.

Mike: 25:25

Even without an order of protection, you know, sometimes there's just where they can't. Go to a parent teacher conference just because of the high conflict I refer to it, or they can't go to the soccer game or the sports activity, even literally if they're sitting, you know, different sides and, and that's unfortunate because ultimately who suffers is the child. And, you know, one parent usually misses out on these special events. I just want to go back to, uh, you know, the Christmas Eve. What are some examples? Can you give some options? For how do parents divide the Christmas break?

Gloria: 26:00

Well, I mean, 1 parent can do the 1st half. So you can either alternate years. You could try to share the holidays. I mean, some people, even if it's not their year, have a separate celebration and kind of designate another day that they do have the child to be a holiday. I think working with the 1st half of the break and the 2nd half of the break and then alternating 1st and 2nd halves will, in 1 year, give 1 parent Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, and in the 2nd half, it'll give the other parent New Year's Eve and New Year's Day, and then they switch. They just flip. But I just find reducing exchanges, especially during the holidays works for a lot of people, especially if there's going to be some travel involved to. Extended families, or some people like to take a little vacation, so I find that most people prefer to just split that. I guess it's about a 10 day period in half with 1 parent getting 1st, other parent having the 2nd half. And then they'll flip and alternate each year.

Mike: 27:08

I wholeheartedly agree. Similar to you. I always ask my client, you know, what normally happens? What's the norm for your family or how you used to normally do it. And then if there's some consensus, great. So then what I always use as a default, and I always say, well, okay, you may have had Christmas Eve every year, but here's a common approach that may work. And it's fair. You know, like you just said, you divide it out, you know, from the last day of school, for example, I was like, you know, the night before or whatever school lets out, depending on the district they're in up until you take the months, you divide it in half, sometimes you might get a little carve out if they really want to give. A gift on that Christmas Eve or Christmas day. And then the other parent gets the second half. And then I tell them not to worry. You know, you get to exchange your gifts for those two hours, but here's what's good next year, you're going to get Christmas Eve and Christmas day. And that's where it's good to be fair. I always learned something, and I use this all the time and I taught it to my kids. Imagine you have one piece of gum, right? And you want to cut it in half. So you want to be fair in it. So what I always say is for one person cuts it in half, but the other person gets to choose the piece first. So think about it, the person that's cutting it, they're going to cut it as equal as possible because the other person's going to choose. So I always say don't negotiate unfairly because ultimately you're really hurting yourself. every other year. And for the most part, I find that the alternating put a little carve out usually works. I don't know if that's your same experience.

Gloria: 28:50

I feel that way too. I feel like there's a relief when you have a string of time, a little chunk of time, rather than worrying about packing the child up, exchanging the child two or three or four times during a 10 day period. That's a lot. You can set an expectation. The child has an expectation. Extended family members have an expectation that parents, both parents have an expectation that they can plan and they can rely on the fact that this is going to be their time and they can make it fun rather than having to factor in all of these exchanges. You know, particularly when you're talking about overnights, especially when you're talking about more than one kid. You know, babies don't travel lightly. Like every time you're exchanging,

Mike: 29:40

there's no. And also it just ruins the flow of a break. Okay. I got to pack up and particularly if some parents like to travel,

Gloria: 29:52

it gives them that option.

Mike: 29:53

I've seen parents where I don't want them to travel. Why not? You know, if they want to go to Florida, they want to go to Disney or wherever they want to go, you know, upstate

Gloria: 30:02

want to control everything.

Mike: 30:03

And what I always say is. Here's what the parent that's going to travel during a big break. They're required to tell you if they're driving, where they're driving to, where they're staying at, who they're driving, you know, the complete itinerary, or if they're flying, what's your flight number? What's the airport? What hotel you're going to? It's reasonable to have like a phone contact, you know, a FaceTime while they're away. That visitation time. is for that parent. And as long as they give you notice and the required information, there's no legitimate reason not to say no.

Gloria: 30:38

Right. And it's something that child would have enjoyed if these two parents were living together. It's something their family would have enjoyed, right? I mean, it's unreasonable to say You can't take a child to Disney. Why? There are places that, that maybe pose more complications than that, which is fine, but parent has a right to know where their child is going to be. But also there should be a corresponding obligation, not to unreasonably withhold consent or make issues out of things that just doesn't seem like is in any way going to be negative for the child. Okay.

Mike: 31:17

Gloria, once again, another great point where, you know, sometimes we put visitation as agreed upon or on consent. I always put in consent shall not unreasonably be withheld. One parent shouldn't say no, just for the sake of saying no. Right. Oh, you know, you're taking them to Disney. Well, no, I want to take them to Disney. Well, you That's the case. All of you could take them to Disneyland.

Gloria: 31:39

Yeah. What a lucky kid. I'm sure he wouldn't

Mike: 31:41

mind, but I put that and consensual on RISB withheld and that avoids the saying no for the sake of saying no.

Gloria: 31:49

Right.

Mike: 31:50

There are two school breaks throughout the year. And, and, and for my, I'm going to refer to it as the February break commonly referred to as the winter break, or then there's that spring break that usually overlaps with either, you know, the religious holidays. My school of thought is. that each parent should have some access time during those two breaks. So, and I know a lot of people, you know, you just alternate one parent gets the winter break one year and then the other parent gets referred to as the spring break and then you alternate each year. You know, what's your thoughts about that strategy?

Gloria: 32:23

That's very common. A lot of parents prefer that. There's usually about a one week period. Some parents prefer just to evenly cut it in half, and one will have the first half every year, or the first half, the other the second half, and they'll just flip it. Again, I am always in favor, because it's hard to travel, especially if you're going to fly, and get it done in a four or five day period, without it being really, really rushed. So I like to do it where it's one year, one gets the winter or the other, and the other one gets the spring. And then they flip it. And the following year, they each take the week. They didn't have the year prior, but it, again, it goes back to what the, what works for the family. Some, some parents just don't travel. They work a lot and they would just prefer to split it down the middle. It only results in the one exchange and it gives them plenty of time to enjoy it. So I'm guided by what the client wants.

Mike: 33:25

I've had both those examples where one parent, yes, I do want to go somewhere with them during the spring break, or many times, well, listen, I'm not planning anything, but I still want that access. So what I try to put is language in there, you know, either divide it, but I put in the event. A parent does wish to travel with given notice to the other parent, then they'll be able to have it. So, because it's all about the other parent needs to have enough notice because they have to arrange for childcare, for example, if there's work. But again, it's about stating what you want, having a good, healthy relationship. And when I say a healthy relationship, the ability to effectively communicate with that other parent. Good point. Gloria, if we could just discuss one of the other main ones, it's the summer break. I've seen many times where, and even where I represented the custodial parent, and well, why they need a summer break. What do you recommend as a fair, adequate amount of summer, not summer visits, but a summer break for the non custodial?

Gloria: 34:26

I mean, I guess it depends on the age of the children and what this family does, because sometimes kids go to sleep away camp. And so, you know, there may be 1 week prior, you know, 1 week, following the end to school and prior to going to sleep away at the beginning of the summer, and then 1 week at the end, at the conclusion of sleep away prior to the The resumption of school that you have to play with the summer is nice because it does provide an opportunity for a non custodial parent to have nice. Chunks of time, because sometimes school and trying to have kids sleep in different homes during the school year. It's problematic, especially if the parents live close, but, you know, it's still a car ride. That that adds a level of complexity to it. Some parents have said, you know, we want to alternate weeks 1 week on 1 week off. If the parents agree to it, you know, the parents are the ones that drive. The decision making, I, you know, I'm a firm believer that parents should control how they make plans and how they arrange time within their family. I just make suggestions. I just say over the time I've been doing this. I find that sometimes this works. Well. What do you think of it? But ultimately, I believe in their autonomy. This is their family. It's not my family. And if they like it a certain way, and they think it's going to work for it a certain way, you know, until it doesn't, and it comes back into court, if it ever does. I don't think I should jump in. I think I should just make suggestions. I should point out and advise of some things that maybe they hadn't considered, like when you want to do one week off and one week on for camp. I mean, for the summer, well, sometimes even if the child's not going to sleep away camp, they still want to do a program in the community with friends. Is that other parent going to be able to get them back and forth? Because otherwise you're, you're relegating these kids to going to camp with their friends, like a town camp week one, not week two, week three, not week. I mean, all they remember is, well, in week two, when I couldn't go, cause I was with mom or dad, everybody went on the best field trip ever where they made this project. If they can continue the continuity, because let's face it, the parents working for the most part, it's not like everybody has the summer break like kids do, you know, will one of the parents be able to get the child back and forth to the planned activities? In the community where, you know, they're enrolled so that that's a consideration. Otherwise, I feel like maybe do 2 or 3 weeks where you can actually enroll a child in a program that could feel like they're part of a program for an extended period of time. And then the other parent will have 2 or 3 weeks and I do think that that's a long stretch for kids to go without seeing their parents. So you pepper in their dinner here and there, but at least it gives the non custodial parent an opportunity to kind of. Experience the child on a day to day basis, as opposed to, say, an alternate weekend basis or some other basis and memories are made in those little moments unexpectedly. It's not all about Disney,

Mike: 37:42

Gloria. You mentioned so many good options and and the camps camps are very good for their friends. It's social interaction. It keeps them all off electronics so many times. I say to the parent, the noncustodial, if you register, you know, they have this summer activity and usually they're aware of it. Yeah, they go to this camp. They've been going there. So if you have that access, you have to make sure that they don't miss anything. And sometimes they say, yes, I'll do the pickup or drop off. But if they're not, I'll You know, if they can't do that, that way, there's no resentment. Then I go to option B. Okay. Well, what about if you have two weeks of summer vacation, it could be consecutive or non. So you get to see them all throughout the month of July, but you get one week. Consecutively and then same thing in the month of August, but ultimately it goes to a short answer. It goes back to what you just said. It's being proactive, communicating and making sure that you put the children's interests 1st, when it comes to the summer breaks, because you don't want them to have that resentment. Oh, I missed that field trip. I missed that event because I had to be with my parent.

Gloria: 38:49

Right, and ultimately that's going to backfire because there's going to be a petition filed. where it's alleged that, you know, the child's a little bit older and doesn't want to spend these long chunks with the other parent because they miss out on everything that they like to do with their friends. And we see that, but I think that the options are infinite, like, just as many different family dynamics that we see. I think there are limitless variations to how you can craft these things. The hardest part and the most consistent part of these cases is getting the 2 parties to a point where they're willing to sit down and talk it through and not look at it. As a win and loss situation, but more of a collaborative, let's make plan for the summer. That makes sense with your work schedule, my work schedule, what the children want to do in terms of their activities. that incorporates me traveling for a week to see my family in Jamaica or North Carolina or wherever they're from. You get the same and just making an enriching, positive family experience instead of just a war zone. Which unfortunately we see a lot.

Mike: 40:03

Unfortunately, Gloria, the last question, if anyone wants to reach you to follow up on any of your comments, if they just want something, how, how does somebody reach out to you?

Gloria: 40:12

Well, I'm pretty easy to find online, but I do have a website. It's gbrocklaw. weebly. com. And you know, my, if you Google my name and it's Professionally, I go by Gloria Marchetti Brock, even though for the most part, all of my colleagues, such as yourself, just refer to me as Gloria Brock, but you can find me either way, always happy to, to speak to people and see how I can help.

Mike: 40:42

Gloria, thank you so much for your time and sharing your experience and some of the wisdom to our listeners. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you so much.

Gloria: 40:51

You too, Michael. Thank you so much.

Mike: 40:55

Thanks for listening. This is Mike Cater, and I'll help you and your family navigate custody disputes or divorce matters with your best interest first. You can book a free consultation with me and learn more by following me on Instagram at Mike J Cater. I've also included a link in today's show notes. Tune in for our next episode of The Brief coming next week.