Handling Child Protective Services (CPS) Interactions

Arming you with crucial knowledge about your rights. Sanchia Palmer, Esq. - former prosecutor and experienced attorney - unlocks the secrets of handling sensitive Child Protective Services (CPS) cases. Together, we explore the complexities of family court, concentrating on Article 10 cases involving abuse and neglect. With Sanchia's expertise, you'll gain an understanding of the nuanced procedures within CPS and how informed communication can make a critical difference.

Key Takeaways: 

• Distinctions between different types of neglect and abuse
• Significance of early evaluations and how parents can make informed educational decisions
• The unique challenges older children face in the digital age
• How absenteeism and the failure to address a child's unique learning needs can lead to educational neglect.
• Resources to address issues like educational neglect and physical abuse 

This episode promises to arm you with crucial knowledge about your rights, like the right to remain silent, and the importance of consulting an attorney when navigating CPS investigations and potential emergency interventions. 

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Transcript

Host: 0:02

This is the brief. I'm sharing lessons from years in the courtroom, representing parents and couples on custody battles, co parenting, mental health, finances, and more. After 20 years as an attorney, I'm also bringing true war stories from the courtroom to empower you with solid and straightforward advice. I want to help you become a better partner and parent and be here anytime when you need it the most. Hello, everyone. And thanks to tuning into this week with the brief with my cater. Today's topic is something that everyone is going to be quite interested in. It revolves around, uh, neglect cases and dealing with CPS, which is child protective services, if you're a parent today's guests, Sanchia Palmer is someone that I've actually seen in the courtroom and I've seen her in action and she's phenomenal. She's been an attorney, she's a former prosecutor, and I tell you. You don't want to cross paths with her in the courtroom. So let's get right into it. Please welcome Sanchia Palmer. Sanchia, thanks for being here and thanks for being a guest on the podcast. I really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule.

Sanchia: 1:19

It's a pleasure. Mike. Good morning. How are you doing?

Host: 1:22

Not bad. Not bad. Things are going well. You know, it's never a dull moment, you know, having young kids and, you know, obviously, you know, being a family court practitioner. Absolutely. You know, a lot of times people say, why am I doing this podcast? I get time and time again, text messages, emails, consultations on how to deal with CPS, how to deal with neglect cases, what is neglect, what is discipline, what is corporal punishment, and this is where a lot, particularly for a lot of the clients that I deal with and that, you know, sometimes there's cultural nuances. You know, when somebody comes in where they don't recognize there's a different standard and, you know, in the United States, particularly if they just emigrated here, or sometimes, you know, different causes, you know, different standards of discipline, different standards of education and such. And, and we'll talk about those types of stuff. So let's get right into it. Everyone's heard family court. What are the matters that family court deals with?

Sanchia: 2:19

Family court has primarily, they deal with abuse and neglect cases. Those are article 10. You look at the family court act. We think of article three, which is juvenile delinquents. If you're under 18 and you're, you commit an action that if you were over 18 would be considered a crime. We have those JD matters. Article four, child support and paternity. Who's the father? Article is custody visitation. Let's see. Seven, I believe is pins. If I recall, Oh gosh, you tested me this morning. And then article 10, we get into those abuse and neglect cases, which I believe is where you want us to focus today.

Host: 3:05

Yes. So I just wanted to bring that out that how people, there's different aspects of the family court from establishing, uh, Paternity. If a child is troubled, they have broad jurisdiction. So for today, we're dealing with neglect. And what I want to focus on, and I'm sure you've dealt with this also is by the time we get involved, by the time we get a phone call statements have already been made or many times, you know, Department of Social Services have a petition filed and they want to remove the child. So what I want to focus on is Before we get involved before a petition is filed, where I want to start off is how should someone apparent deal with CPS when they get that knock on the door or when they come home from work and they see that business card was left on their door jam. What would you recommend to a parent who was contacted by CPS?

Sanchia: 3:54

The first thing I would say to someone if you've never had any interactions with CPS is that, one, you do have a right to remain silent. A CPS proceeding or a CPS investigation, while it may be civil and for the most part, criminal penalties are not attached, they can be. Because depending on the information that is elicited through an interview, that report can be bumped up. And You can end up with a criminal investigation. So the first thing to remember is that you do have a right to remain silent. You also have a right to representation. You have a right to say to a CPS worker who knocks on your door, you know, what is this about? Get some information and say, I am willing to speak with you, but I think I need to consult an attorney first. But if you're going to consult an attorney, you also need to know exactly what you're bringing to that attorney. So you want to get that information about. What that report was about, what am I being accused of, why are you here at my door trying to speak to me?

Host: 4:58

Is the CPS worker required to tell them the exact allegations, or can they keep it broad? We got a complaint about abuse and neglect, or do they have to be a little bit more specific?

Sanchia: 5:10

You know what, the truth is Mike, I don't know the answer to that question. I truly don't. I find that CPS sort of, in my experience, in general, it's just, they tend to ask broad questions, so we got to report about X, Y, Z. So, it may be specific, it may be general, and sometimes it really depends on the worker that comes to the door.

Host: 5:33

What I always tell clients is, it's a fine rope. I think, You should have some type of communication with the CPS worker, you know, if they, that they called you, they left a business card, they knock on your door, they'll come all different times. They'll come in the morning, the afternoon, they'll even come as late as 7, 8 o'clock. I've received, you know, they'll drop in to see. And I kind of told them, yes, the CPS worker is not your friend. They're doing a job.

Sanchia: 6:01

Well, the thing is like they can come in the middle of the night because there is a, there's an arm of CPS that's called EPS, right? Emergency Protective Workers. So they will, if they get a report about something at, and they consider it to be imminent risk, they can come out at two, three o'clock in the morning. There's nothing to stop them.

Host: 6:21

I've had those cases where, you know, there was like, you know, uh, severe domestic violence, a parent was arrested in the middle of the night while the children were present. They'll come out and they'll literally do a taking right there. And then two days later, or the next day we have to do an emergency hearing. Would you recommend a parent totally ignore, totally, you know, not return the phone call, not answer the door?

Sanchia: 6:43

Absolutely not. That is not what you, that's not the best thing you do. And, you know, you can ask to make an appointment with them. I can make an appointment to come and meet with you. Can you just let me know what this is about and we can make an appointment. You don't have to let them in your house, but you can definitely say, I'll make an appointment. It's not a good time right now. When can I come speak, come see? And then when they come, can they bring their attorney with them? Absolutely. If you can, I would absolutely recommend you bring in your attorney with you because that most times make the difference between CPS bringing a case against you because a lot of these things are a misunderstanding or miscommunication or lack of knowledge. With CPS, ignorance is not your friend. You're

Host: 7:31

absolutely right, Sanjia, you know. The quick takeaway, don't ignore CPS. They're not going to go away. I tell clients many times, do not put your head in the sand.

Sanchia: 7:41

It aggravates the situation, actually. It makes it way worse.

Host: 7:45

You know, because I find that, particularly if there's usually some kind of neglect, a child is involved, that's the usual standard, you know, it's called child has

Sanchia: 7:53

to be involved, right? Yeah, yeah, that's why it's called. child under the age of 18, that's CPS's jurisdiction.

Host: 8:00

I find that if you don't return their phone call, don't answer the door, you know, they left a business card, and, you know, after two, three attempts, they could escalate it and say, listen, I haven't had, I haven't had an opportunity to speak to the parent, or more importantly, I haven't had an opportunity to put eyes on the child, which is to them is very important. And just briefly, can you explain what eyes on the child

Sanchia: 8:25

mean? They need to be able to see the child, like physically see the child, look at them, see that they're well, not well, whatever they, to make an assessment about whether or not that child is. Properly developing, meeting milestones, so on and so forth. What

Host: 8:42

I have recommended many times to, uh, my clients is no, if you don't want them, let them in the house. If you're not comfortable with it, do not let them in the house, plain and simple. There's no search warrant, but I always recommend particularly early on, you could bring the child either two things, bring them in the hallway, you know, bring them out, here's the child, you see him. That way they have eyes, you know, he's well, or she's well, or number two, when you make that appointment, bring the child with you to the local DSS office. It's that balance of, no, don't ignore it a hundred percent because that's going to backfire, but also what I've always found is the exact opposite, where a parent goes above and beyond. To be too helpful with the CPS. And while they think they're being helpful, they're making statements that are going to be the basis to bring either criminal charges. Or the neglect, which even though it's a civil proceeding, it's, it's a proceeding and family court.

Sanchia: 9:48

That has grave impact on that can have, if there's a finding against you, can have grave impact on your life and livelihood, depending on the industry that you're in,

Host: 9:59

what would you recommend? So again, we're talking pre filing, you know, we're not, you know, where the neglect hasn't been filed. What would you recommend to a parent? How much interaction with CPS? Is fair and reasonable.

Sanchia: 10:14

I think that all depends on what the allegations are, because sometimes it's just very simple and other times it's. You know, I've had cases from educational neglect where it's more of a 16 year old who's decided not to go to school anymore and the school calls in an educational neglect, come to find out the child has like social anxieties and phobias that they're not going into school and parents may have done everything that they could. So, and then two, I've had dead babies. Unfortunately, you know, so I think it doesn't get more extreme than that. The answer to your question is it really depends on the nature of the investigation because it could be something that seemingly innocuous or just sort of someone who doesn't understand that. Yeah, you can't really beat your child and leave marks to. A baby died. It's really a spectrum. It really depends on what the allegations are.

Host: 11:16

You mentioned a lot there. And while we want to protect our clients, you know, and you just said something, you know, a baby dies and we've all heard cases where there's extreme abuse, corporal punishment, and while CPS is not our friend, you know, we also have to respect they have a job to do. It's that balance. But you said something, you know, you mentioned two different types of neglect, educational neglect. And obviously a child abuse. So, you know, I want to get into, you know, what is educational neglect?

Sanchia: 11:44

Well, New York state, a child starting at six years old, they're required to go to school. I think it's first grade. Oh, first grade. Yeah. I don't think kindergarten is required. Although I absolutely recommend it, man, as soon as they can get to school two, two and a half, go get them in there. Get them in there. It really helps with the socialization. But definitely it's age six. So first grade and above, you want to get that child in. You want to make sure that that child goes to school. Education neglect is something from the child not showing up to school to the parent not Making appropriate decisions for, let's say, a child with special needs. Those are the more difficult cases, because you hear you may have a parent who's doing everything that they can. The child is well fed, the home is appropriate, three square meals, they're, they're doing everything that they can do. The child is. Adjusted and socially adjusted and adaptable in every other way, but for some reason, this child may have some special needs, whether it's that they need to be in a smaller setting and the parents say, well, you know, you're not going to label my child and that child is struggling with learning or that child is struggling with behaviors, the school, the professionals are recommending, hey, I think you need to get the child evaluated and the parents like, yeah, no, And then you end up putting the child in a school setting that's not appropriate for them. That can be considered educational neglect, not meeting the child's needs based on that child's abilities.

Host: 13:28

Sanchia, that is a great example, you know, and I've spoken about it, you know, I have a child, my son, he has an IEP. Early on, at least for me, I was very, it's like, what does this mean? Well, you know, what is the spectrum? You know, you get all these emotionals, denials. No, it's not that. They're just a little delayed. Many times parents have a hard time. rectifying, you know, what an IEP is and what delayed services are and and, and things along those lines. So the takeaway is if you have a medical professional, a pediatrician or referral and not taking your child for an evaluation can lead to neglect because they're not exceeding in school. Is that the takeaway?

Sanchia: 14:12

And it's not even like you're not meeting a child's needs. It's the idea that each child is an individual and children learn differently in different ways. It's the bell curve, right? So, you have the ones on, on one end that they're going to need a little more or maybe a lot, lot more. Then you have the, the great majority in the middle where just like, Jeanette is perfectly fine. You stick them all in there. They all just kind of go through the motions and they don't need anything additional. And then you have the ones that at the other end of the bell curve that. Excel that you bet you don't even have to look at them. They just they walk in. Yeah, I had a sister like that. You I'm a little bit bitter. They walk in and they get a hundred just just by being there. Doesn't seem to be paying attention, but they're fine. Not much intervention from the parents. But then you have those kids who they may need speech therapy, occupational therapy. They may need tutoring. If they may need small group settings to A little bit of one on one in school, or maybe they need things to be broken down in a different way. And if you're not paying attention, or if a teacher, a psychologist, or a medical doctor say to you, Hey, I think you should get your child evaluated. And you say, Yeah, no, there's nothing wrong with my child. You just want to label my child. And just stop, just stop. It's okay to get an evaluation. Get the information. Ignorance is not your friend. What I always say, you may learn something. No, we don't want to label children unnecessarily, but if you don't have the information, then you really don't have the argument to say yes or no, right?

Host: 15:57

You raise a great point, you know, information is power. And with that, you can make informed decisions. Now, essentially a lot of times, you know, particularly when, you know, children are going to be diagnosed, there's delays, IEPs, it's early on in their education, right? First, second grade. But you alluded to it earlier, you know, where you have that preteen, you know, you know, they're in that high school, you know, that 13, 14, where again, they're a minor, you know, they're strong willed and they were bullied. They have social, you know, anxiety. Times are different when you and I were in school, you know, you know, I always say nowadays it's tough being, it was tough being a teenager in our age, but now I feel that social skills have declined. I think that social media and, you

Sanchia: 16:46

know, different depends on how you look at it.

Host: 16:48

I believe that just a good old. And again, maybe I'm going back to my generation just playing on the street stickball or just the good old social interaction. I'm not saying it's not there, but there's been a sharp decline, you know, while the digital age has made it's different. Yeah. Has made a it, it's definitely

Sanchia: 17:08

different. You don't have to sit next to someone playing a board game to interact with. You know, someone across the country, across the world in a virtual reality world that makes sense to them.

Host: 17:22

And there's benefit to that. You know, you learn about different cultures, different perspectives because now, you know, you're not just talking to your friends down the street or from, you know, you're dealing with, you know, students and particularly like, you know, with the video games from all over the world, literally. But, you know, I also feel that, you know, and my experience that it has also created more social awkwardness because people are not dealing with each other the way they used to. So how do you deal with some of, you know, that 13, that 14, you know, with depression, anxiety, they were bullied and. You have a parent trying to bring their kid to school and the kid just doesn't go.

Sanchia: 18:00

How do you handle that again, going back to the information, how important it is to be informed because being proactive is better than being reactive. Right? So you have a child who, you know, One or two days. They didn't want to go to school this week. It starts and my stomach hurt or I have a headache. I don't feel well and I'm too tired. You know, it can start anywhere, right? And then it can morph into something. So you want to be able to one pay attention to your child and to Yeah. Ask for help. You know, the school's there to help you set up a meeting with the school social worker. What can I do? What's going on? The guidance counselor, the teachers, and then be proactive because the last thing you want is for that child to miss. 30 days for, you know, school's in six weeks and the child already missed 20 days of school. That's, you know, that's kind of like a month and that's problematic because they really think about it, the ratio of the days of school compared to the amount of days that that child's butt was in that seat, right? So schools have this amazing thing now where if your child's not in school by 10 o'clock, They're calling you, they're sending an email, they're sending the text message. It's automated. They send it every single way. You're like, gee, like, come on. You want to pay attention. You want to, you want to make sure that the school, hey, I'm here. What's going on? And you follow up with that child. And if you suspect, usually kids who have any type of depression or anxiety, they're showing other signs and symptoms as there's something going on. So you want to ask for help, ask the pediatrician for help. Think about, you know, whether or not this child may need. A different setting of a school and work with the professionals because I tell you, if you do not work with them, there are mandated reporters and they can and will call in an educational neglect against you and really think about the fact that it's really about what your child needs.

Host: 20:03

Essentially, you mentioned something good about the medical professionals. I had a educational neglect where CPS was saying, listen, you know, your child missed like 70 days and you know, you're not doing anything about it. And when I met with the parents, you know, they showed me, you know, referrals. So what we literally signed HIPAA authorizations and showed how the parents went to the doctor's office, their primary pediatrician, you know, cause again, they were at that age. And over a year ago, and how we referred it to therapy, and I said, and I showed to the judge, yes, the child is not going to school. Right? However, look how the parents have been trying to address the issue.

Sanchia: 20:42

Right? And that's another thing, like, to work with the school, because a lot of parents may or may not, they may not know that If your child is not physically in school, then there are things that the school is required to do. They can put in place a homeschooling system where the teacher comes out if the child is too sick to go to school. So in this day and age where you can have virtual school, but you have to do something, don't just Be apathetic. Well, I can't make him go. I can't make her go. I have to go to work. Yes, you do. We get it. You do have to provide for your children, for your household, for yourself. But at the same time, a phone call goes a long way. Reach out to the guidance counselor. So when I'm having difficulties with so and so, you know, you want to make sure that you are communicating with your team. They are there to help and there are Programs and services. Recently, I had a case. It wasn't, it's not a neglect case. It's actually a JD case where I represent a 15 year old who got himself in a little bit of trouble. Unfortunately, shortly thereafter, he also got hurt on the streets, right? And he needed a Multiple surgeries to repair a very significant injury that he had. And after about, you know, after the third surgery, I said, Hey, have you been in touch with the guidance counselor? And she's like, no, but his coach came and visited him. I'm like, you want to reach out to the guidance counselor because no, he's in the hospital, but they could see. Um, they could send some work to school or they could send a teacher out to make sure that he's not getting any further behind. So parents don't know and particularly, you know, we work in communities that are, have a high immigrant population and this parent would not know. They're very, they're relatively new to the country. I would say less than two years. And so that's information that it's just not. readily available, right? So she was like, Oh, okay. She didn't realize that she could have just reached out to the guidance counselor and get into that proactive stance, right? Rather than waiting for the teacher, principal, whomever to reach out to say, Hey, what's going on with someone? So they know he's in the hospital, but if you don't ask, you don't know. Right. And you can definitely. Work on getting your child more assistance.

Host: 23:06

That's a great example, you know, and what you said, so, you know, to the parents, if you're having difficulty with a child, adolescent, for whatever reason, contact the school. And nowadays with the services in school and a lot of these contracts that school districts have with outside services, there will be something there. And more importantly, just for a matter of preservation. A parent took a proactive step. I'm having a hard time with my child. So you speak to the principal, this teacher, the third, you know, the guidance counselor. So at least it's documented. Hey, yes. Well, even though my child's not going to school, I'm not happy with it. I'm not sitting idle. I'm being proactive and trying to address. the issue on why that child is not going to school. So, you know, you make a very good point. Contact. Don't put your head in the sand.

Sanchia: 23:53

Yeah. Remember prevention is better than the cure all the time. All the

Host: 23:59

time. Well said prevention is better, you know, preemptively. That's well said. And you know what, we're going to make sure we put that in a soundbite. Prevention is better

Sanchia: 24:09

than the cure. Prevention's better than the cure. You know, you want to be as proactive as possible.

Host: 24:15

There's the other type of neglect and abuse. And you mentioned it earlier, the physical abuse. And this is a conversation I've had with, you know, a lot of my colleagues. What's the difference of a good old discipline punishment? And when does that rise to a level of abuse? Some people could answer, well, this, you know, I've heard people say a slap is abuse. I heard people say, you know, talking down to a child is abuse. And in your experience, is there a punch list or is it a gray line? You know, how can you help guide?

Sanchia: 24:47

So in terms of physical abuse, there is a defining line. A lot of people say, you know, New York State, you're not supposed to beat your child. Actually, that's not what the law says. And I, I want to focus on the legal definition. Do I think that you're supposed to beat your child? Very, very hard not to, but having been a parent for a very long time, you know, there are days when it's like, Lord,

Host: 25:11

you get on my nerves because

Sanchia: 25:16

I don't know that I can control myself right now. Just go sit down. The legal line is. You never leave a mark, right? Because sometimes when we are in anger, and a lot of times parents discipline out of anger, or they're responding to a child out of frustration, you don't know how hard your strike is going to be. So, again, this is one of those, you want to employ ways of, Disciplining, punishing, teaching your child rather than relying on physical discipline because there's a very, very thin line. You may think, you know, just like smacking your child with a belt or whatever, you leave a welt, sorry. You left a mark. Generally, what CPS, you know, open palm on a fleshy skin. It can leave palm prints, right? So, just try to avoid it to the best that you can. But, I also don't want parents to think that Smacking your child there is abusive. You shouldn't, you should try really hard not to. CPS not, is not taking your child away for that. For, for the most part, they'll sort of try to help you with some alternative parenting techniques. And one thing I want to say to parents sometimes too, is that CPS is often seen as A negative entity, quite often, they are not, they do have access to some of the most invaluable services in the county and you know, a lot of times you're working with a friend or whomever that they can't get therapy for themselves with CPS workers. They have a more direct line, right? They have contracts with agencies. They can really get you set up and get things going a lot faster than an individual may be able to.

Host: 27:16

I wholeheartedly agree. When clients tell me, I tell them, no, using a slipper, a belt, you know, a spatula, a wooden spoon, don't do it. Even sometimes corporal punishment, you know, kneeling on rice, you know, Giving them pain, you know, certain things, these corporal punishment, you know, while sometimes there's cultural nuances,

Sanchia: 27:38

cultural norms,

Host: 27:39

right? It's not expected. And a basic guidance I tell parents is listen, the courts can't get involved in how to discipline your child. But if it rises to a level of abuse where your child is constantly having marks on their body, it's an issue and we have to address it. The general. Consensus, what I believe is, you know, a smack on the hand that doesn't leave a bruise, any welting or stuff that's just good old fashioned, you know, discipline for acting out, but you know, we live in such a world where there's mandatory reporters. School teachers, doctors, other social service providers, or even a child says, Hey, you know, you know, my mom or my dad hit me last night. A teacher's little required to report that. And what happens is you can't unring the bell once a complaint goes in. And I tell parents, you know, while these. Reporting requirements are put in place. You know, you could sift through what's abuse and what's discipline while there might not be, you know, there's a lot of gray area, CPS, if you speak to them, they'll be able to see that it's just not, if you slap them on the hand, I think it's totality, you know, they speak to the child, they'll see, you know, their medical up to date, are they going to school? And so I don't think it's just one facet. I think it's a whole big picture. And this is the Department of Social Services, which is again, a county department where CPS, well, they have unlimited, you know, literally unlimited resources with different service providers from parenting to anger management, you know, if there's a substance abuse issue. So, while it could be frustrating dealing with them, working with them usually gets the more favorable result. It appears you feel that way also.

Sanchia: 29:24

Yeah. It can be positive and negative or negative and, or, um, but you know, they do have access to resources that a lot of times it's, it's a lot harder to get if you're trying to do it on your own. And if you're trying to get therapy and if anyone's tried to get therapy recently outside of the, you know, the online type quick fix type things, but waiting lists are long, right? Yes. DSS. I'm not saying that it's an automatic in, but they tend to be able to set things up a little bit faster than an individual trying to, to get it on their own. So if it's a, it's a situation where a child is not going to school or may need therapy or may need an evaluation or something, that's something that DSS can actually really help with.

Host: 30:12

In my cases, I've put pressure on them and I asked the court to put pressure. You know, I would say, hold on a second, DSS started this case and if they want them to get therapy or counseling or whatever the service is, judge, let them set it up and let them set them up timely because to make it happen. And I find that when there's a lag in services or getting the report, courts are not shy to put a little more pressure. On CPS to get it done. Cause again, they're the one that filed the case,

Sanchia: 30:41

right?

Host: 30:42

Do you have any other tips or guidance for any parent that is potentially dealing with CPS or is involved in a neglect case?

Sanchia: 30:50

My biggest tip is information is your friend. Education is your friend. The more informed you are, the less apt you are to make mistakes. You can get to an informed decision, try to be as open minded as possible and speak to an attorney. Even if you go to, there, there are lots of places in and around the county legal services of the Hudson Valley. You can get a free consultation just to say, you know, their parent groups, you know, other parents may have on Facebook, even may have gone through something. Just ask the question, you know, isolation, Really is not helpful and you do have a right to remain silent. Can't speak right now. May I schedule an appointment? Don't ignore it. You're better off making an appointment. Come back tomorrow. I'm able to do this at 10 a. m. I can meet you at your office, you know, whatever, but absolutely. It's where we started is don't ignore them. If CPS does show up at your door. But for me, most importantly. Prevention is better than the cure. So be proactive. If there's something going on, if you don't have enough money to feed your family, if you don't have health care, if you don't know what's going on with your child educationally, reach out to the school, health care, go down to DSS, sign up for something, food, whatever you need, you know, like there are resources. So being proactive is, is really the best. Never shy away from asking for information.

Host: 32:26

Great advice. Essentially, if somebody wants to reach out, what's the best way for them to call you or email you?

Sanchia: 32:32

So my office is in White Plains in the Greenberg section of White Plains, 125 Dobbs Ferry Road, and my office number is 914 246 8405. Those are the easiest. You can call me on the number. It's, you know, technology is a great thing. Voice over IP, it's a voice over IP number, so you can call the number, text the number. I will respond, may not be right away, or, you Today, you know, but I'm in court a lot. So usually my, my return calls are either between the 1230 and, and one 45 period where we have a break or after four 30, but I do get back to people as much as I can. You can ask me a question, you know, I, I will answer as much as, as I possibly can. Great

Host: 33:23

job. Sancia. Thanks so much. And to our listeners, if you call Sancia, make sure you let them know that you heard her on the brief. Thanks again, and I'll see you in the world. Okay, thank you so much. Great talking to you, Mike. Thanks for listening. This is Mike cater, and I'll help you and your family navigate custody disputes or divorce matters with your best interest first, you can book a free consultation with me and learn more by following me on Instagram at Mike j cater. I've also included a link in today's show notes. Tune in for our next episode of the brief coming next week.