Why Marriages Fail: 4 Hidden Stressors Every Couple Faces

Half of all marriages end in divorce, and most for the same four reasons. Dr. Larry Waldman, a seasoned forensic psychologist and author, breaks down the overlooked truths about what truly makes or breaks a relationship.

From financial conflict and intimacy issues to in-law dynamics and parenting clashes, Dr. Waldman reveals how small, unspoken habits can lead to emotional distance and eventual breakdown. 

Key Takeaways:

• The warning signs of failing relationships
• What to do when communication stops working
• How to raise resilient kids through conflict and change

This episode isn’t just about avoiding divorce, it’s about learning how to build marriages that last, navigate second chances wisely, and prioritize your children’s emotional wellbeing along the way.

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Transcript

Mike: 0:02

This is the brief. I'm sharing lessons from years in the courtroom representing parents and couples on custody battles, co-parenting, mental health, finances, and more. After 20 years as an attorney, I'm also bringing true law stories from the c. To empower you with solid and straightforward advice. I wanna help you become a better partner and parent and be here in a time when you need it the most. I. Hello everyone, and I'm Mike Catter and thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of the Brief. This week's episode is a must listen to if you're in a marriage with some difficulty, which most marriages are, if you're contemplating marriage, you would wanna listen to this'cause we're gonna talk about what's the magic number. To see if you're on the right track for a successful marriage. We're gonna talk about the four criteria that are common in failed marriages. We're gonna talk about how children are affected and when it comes to children, when do we need to give'em that most important attention? So tune in. I'd like to welcome our guest, Dr. Larry Waldman. Did you know that half of the US marriages end in divorce and when kids are involved, the stakes are even higher. Today's guest has spent decades in and out of the courtroom helping families navigate those challenges. I am so excited and honored. To welcome Dr. Larry Waldman so he could share his insight and his experiences in his decades long. Being a forensic psychologist, Dr. Waldman has a PhD and we took him out of retirement so he could share his insight. To our listeners, Dr. Waldman, thank you so much for joining the brief today. Welcome to the show. Thank

Larry: 1:58

you. Happy to be here.

Mike: 2:00

I purposely started. It's catchy, unfortunately, but it's also true that marriages in essence, are declining and, and couples that are married are getting divorced. What's going on in married life?

Larry: 2:13

Well, unfortunately, it's not that new. The statistics have remained pretty static over the decades, between 40 to 50% of, uS marriages end in divorce, unfortunately, and the majority of those divorces often occur within the first five years.

Mike: 2:37

I remember the saying the seven year rule or the seven year itch, is there a data to show, you know, if a relationship survives a certain amount of time, you know the likelihood of success. You know, you mentioned five, it is five years, the true benchmark or some other number.

Larry: 2:54

I'm not aware of any actual research, but I think if it, it gets past the five year mark, it's, like a good start. It's sort of like the 90 day badge you get when you're trying to overcome addiction. If you can get past 90 days. Then you, there's a good chance you'll be on your way. But of course we know relapses occur, you know, down the road. There are also certain other crisis points, if you will, that have been researched. For example, the Empt Nest period is a jump demographically so that when the kids leave the house. Many times, typically the wife says, okay, well I'm done. I did my job. My kids are raised, they're, they're in college or at work, whatever. I've had it with this guy. And out she goes. So there, there is that spike, if you will. At that time

Mike: 4:03

I saw an increase in that, you know, here in New York they referred to as the Silver Years divorces and. I speak to different clients, you know, grandparents, retirees, and I would always ask, why did you stay in the marriage if it was this bad and you hear it all the time? The children, I wanted to make sure the children were grown up. I wanted to make sure they're outta the house. I wanted to make sure they were done with college. And I say in my head, that is such an un, a noble reason. The wrong reason to stay in a marriage. You commend them, but also you're like, you know, that's not what the purpose of marriage is, unfortunately. Do you find any other habits or actions that are main causes in divorces?

Larry: 4:52

There's several to begin with, it's how we get married in the first place. I've accused when I was in, in practice a number of individuals of spending more time of vetting their new iPhone. Than they did their new partner. In my experience, and, and I've probably counseled upwards of 500 or more couples in my career frequently, I, I find that the coupling occurred very quickly. There really wasn't a long enough time for these parties to, to really get together. Well, I, I wrote an article that's on my website, as a matter of fact. I talk about this pyramid of, of what makes a good relationship. And, and of course, at the bottom, at the base is like similar values, similar morals, similar interests and so forth. And at the top is, is passion. Unfortunately, most couples take that pyramid and turn it upside down, and that is they get attracted to each other and there's always gonna be some chemistry. I, I get that. And there should be, but they put that first and foremost. I can't tell you how many times I've, I've heard that in therapy sessions, and I would say to them, when did you first realize that maybe this relationship was in trouble? And often I would hear, well, you know, yes. He, he was drinking too much, or, or she, you know, she seems to lose her temper too easily, or, or things like that. But he or she was so good in bad, we

Mike: 6:41

just continued on. You ignored the main issues for immediate gratification. Do you find that it's always been that way or has there been a shift, let's say, in the last two generations?

Larry: 6:54

In my experience, I would say it's probably always been that way. I have two sons and fortunately they're happily married, and so, and then I would talk with them about finding, you know, a partner, a right partner, and so on. There's a number of things. First and foremost. If you run into somebody and you're single and you're you, you're thinking about, I'd like to get married to the right person. One of the first things I would look at, what's their credit rating? Interesting. Yes. I mean, what does that say about this person? The data's clear there. There's four reasons that marriages get stressed. Okay. Money's one of them. Sex is also another one of them. In-laws and kids. Those are the four areas that that plague most marriages or at least need to get resolved. At any rate,

Mike: 7:53

and I want our listeners. To read into that and while we can't dive Delphi into each, so number one is financial. And, and, and I agree. You know, if money dries out or finances become, it just raises the stress level. And when you said number two sex, do you mean like, you know, an affair or lack of sex or some, or lack of intimacy or something else?

Larry: 8:15

Lack of intimacy, the frequency issue, boredom. Actually over time

Mike: 8:22

you could be faithful, but even if you have, it's bad in the bedroom. And not to make light of it, it could be to divorce. And then number three, you mentioned in-laws, which you, you know, I always say. You know, keep family out of it because once family gets involved, they're gonna continue to hold the grudges. Meanwhile, you two are gonna make up and, but they're gonna always remember the fighting. Having a child, having children obviously is a blessing, but what, what is it about children that add to it? If, if you could give a brief example.

Larry: 8:57

Well, uh, having different perspectives. Okay. And, and, and this again relates to the, all these issues. If, for instance dad believes in spanking and mom does not at all, you've got a problem. And of course the kid is gonna be in the middle of this and is gonna manipulate the whole situation. These are some of the things that need to be talked about, vetted ahead of time. That's what I was, what I started out by saying here is that, you know, there's a lot of things to clarify before you walk down the aisle. One of my articles is examine the rope before you tie the knot, and this is part of it. You need to have this discussion about what are your views on parenting? And again, back to money, I've done a lot of marital workshops. I start off by having each of them fill out a little inventory, and one of the questions is, suppose you receive an inheritance of$10,000. Okay, what do you do with it? And they do this independently. If we start this program and I have the people, then read it aloud without the other person knowing. And if, if dad says, or, or the mail says, oh, with$10,000, I buy me a boat. And she says, are you kidding? I put that in the bank. Guess what? You know you've got some. Financial issues. Now, if you have a real spender and a real saver, that's not going to work. You're gonna fight about this for as long as you stay together. So how we manage our money, how we spend our money, how we make our money? Is the wife going to work or not? You'd be surprised. How many cases I had over the years where that became an issue and I would look at them and said, while you guys were dating, this never came up. You never talked about, I don't want you to to work, I want you to stay home, et cetera, et cetera. And she says, no, you have a career. I have a career. You know, and so on. Things like, like that. With respect to in-laws, again, they can be wonderful. Sometimes it's great, but sometimes they can be overbearing. I like to occasionally refer to them as the outlaws, not the, but the point is, is that there's a whole bunch of things to talk about. And come clear on before you make this commitment. And most people unfortunately don't. And so what ends up happening is you end up marrying someone that has strikingly different values

Mike: 11:59

and. That's a problem. I'm laughing at two things because what you're saying is spot on and I see it, but I'm also thinking about the days before I, with my partner, or even right now, I have two nieces and a nephew getting married in the next year or so. And, and you know, they always come to me. So, you know, what's your opinion or what do you think, you know, just general like, oh, you know, they look, I was like, you know, you, you sure you're ready. Did you guys discuss all these things that you just mentioned? One thing I didn't, I didn't get into the specifics. So how does somebody ask a question? Is it literally, so what is your vision of being a parent? How does somebody out there and, and it could be a little confusing, a little awkward, you know, maybe it's an invitation for an argument. So let's just say there's a, a young couple. They know it's serious. What is the conversational starter on these issues? Is there any guidance you could give for young couples or, or, couples contemplating marriage? Well,

Larry: 13:03

good question. Sure. First off, I'm glad you mentioned it, that one of the important things to do is to see how your prospective partners parents. Get along are married because I think you can understand how your partner's parents are married is likely to dictate how your partner views marriage and, and is going to act. Accordingly. Again, one of the pieces of vetting is to see that. Now if they live on the other side of the country, well that could be a problem, but you certainly want to take a look at that. But if you can feel that this relationship is getting serious, then you have to have these serious discussions before you move in together and buy a sofa together and a and a bed together. Or you bring the toothbrush to, you know, to the other person's.

Mike: 14:12

Right,

Larry: 14:12

exactly. and you're making all these emotional and now financial commitments already, you're already getting, you are getting tied in and it might not be ready. So the time comes that you, you wanna have these discussions. Again, you know, what, what's your view on, you know, on money? Who's gonna manage it? What are your financial goals? That's an important question.

Mike: 14:41

It's one thing to ask a question, but you know, let's just say we're, we're referring to a couple, you know, late 20, you know, starting their career. They're done with college and if they don't have, per se, I know many people that are in relationship. Yeah, I want to get married, have kids, and I want to have a good life. But is it a warning sign? If they don't have a particular goal by the time they're 30, other than, yeah, I want to be successful and have a, a wife, a kids, and a white picket fence. Or if they're not able to get details about their goal, is that a warning sign or, or is that normal or something else? It would be to me.

Larry: 15:20

Okay. When my wife and I started, we, by the way, we just celebrated 54 years. Okay. God bless you. Yeah. I like to say it's been the best 30 years of my life. No, just, just a dope joke, dear. Okay.

Mike: 15:37

Kill some downtime. That's it. I, I get it.

Larry: 15:40

We had those conversations. I mean, we were, we got married at to. She was 24, I was 25, and I told her straight out, here are my goals. We were living in Wisconsin at the time. I'm moving to the Southwest, probably Phoenix. It ended up being Phoenix. I'm going to earn a PhD. I'm going to become a, you know, a clinical psychologist. And this is what I said. What's going to happen? I want you to come along with me in this, but I want you to, I want you to know this. She did, and she was a teacher. She, she taught fourth grade for 30 years. So we both had careers and those are the things we talked about. She managed the money at home. I managed the money in my office and so forth. You know, we had these divisions of responsibilities. Of course, we also talked about our parents. I had a, a couple of cases where the mother-in-law or the, the wife's mother would, would knock on the door at eight o'clock on Sunday morning frequently. To say hello and bring bagels or something without being asked. And so, I mean, no, you know, once in a while. Okay, but you know, someone has to rein her in those kinds of

Mike: 17:04

things. What you're saying is spot on and, and many times when I speak to clients one-on-one, regardless of what party, one of the things I would've said, well, why didn't she say anything? Why wasn't this discussed? Okay, it wasn't discussed in the beginning. Why wasn't it discussed? When you saw the yellow flag, why wasn't it discussed when you saw the red flag? Sometimes me, myself, I'm guilty of it. Sometimes it's better to stay quiet than pick a fight, you know? And I always say, is this the hill that you want to die on on a battle? When does it become, and, and, and in your experience, okay, this is not worth a fight, or this is not worth an argument. What's the difference of, no, this is. If we're gonna get into an argument, let's decide it now, as opposed to biting your tongue.

Larry: 17:50

Great question and, and this is, you're right, very common. You know, sometimes situation isn't right to bring things up. In my experience though, is that a lot of people will, what I call store hurts. It's one, one little thing. It gets piled on the other. You know, you, I don't like the way you said this yesterday and today, you know, you, you know, you left out the milk and then now you did so and so, and all of a sudden there's a explosion and now you're overreacting because it isn't just the thing that just happened, it's the thing that just happened. Plus all those other things that you've been storing. So I believe that, you know, if, if there's something that's of concern with you that you and your partner need to address it now, even though you may have vetted your partner very well, like, like I did and so on, it's not to say you don't have issues. We all have issues. Every marriage has issues. A healthy marriage is one where those issues have been discussed and resolved an unhealthy marriage, one that could lead to divorce is where those issues remain open. Open so that anytime you get even close to it, you just dance on it a little bit. There's another explosion, and the same things are said sometimes dozens of times. Same fight. I can tell you how many couples I've, I counseled and they say the same thing. You know, he says the same damn thing. I say the same damn thing. And, and so, and where does it end with, with slamming doors and going to separate rooms and, and so on. Now, maybe you make up a little later, you know, you calm down and so forth, but it's still there. The issue is still raw and open. Okay, and what has to happen is that the couple has to work at resolution, not winning, not making the other person bend over and whatever, but resolve it so that it is done, where both parties can say, okay, you know, it, it's like, frankly, it's like a negotiation, if you will. It

Mike: 20:30

really is. You know, a lot of times I tell clients, marriage isn't 50 50, it's 60, 60. Where it's not necessarily winning and losing. Sometimes you gotta take the high road and sometimes you put the line in the sand if it's based on your values, but it really is negotiation skills sitting down and having a little empathy. I'm glad you're sharing this, Dr. Alman. Thank you.

Larry: 20:54

You're right, and a lot of couples have the winner loser thing. You know that the argument can't stop until the winner wins and the loser loses. And you know, sometimes it's the male or the female, you know, it varies from couple to couple, but sooner or later, the loser gets sick and tired of losing.

Mike: 21:14

That's a danger point. And that's a great segue. What are some signs, or I'm gonna use the word red flags, what are some indicators that couples can look out for before it gets to the, you know, the door slamming and the styling treatment and the, are, are there any type of sign, you know, something to look out for and address it earlier on before it comes to a head? Number one frequent

Larry: 21:42

outbursts. Statements like, you're never gonna change. We're never gonna fix this. Statements along those lines where one of the partners starts believing that things are never going to get better. When that mindset starts setting in, then you're gonna get a call. Sooner or later, a divorce attorney's gonna get a call. The frequent outbursts. Then the reverse just simply shutting down like, okay, I'm just going through the motions. I don't care anymore. And I've seen that a lot with, with couples, however, have reached that, one of them has reached that point many times. And I'm sure you've, you've been there when the party gets this notice of an application for divorce, they're surprised.

Mike: 22:39

They didn't know it was coming. I've seen that many times. Wow. I didn't know it was this bad. Be, you know, because they're going through almost like robotic, they're going to work, they're coming home at nighttime, they're paying the bills, you know, and it's usually, I've never had, when I represented the wife or the mother. I've never had them surprise. they were aware of it. Usually the surprise, you know, I call they're lost in the sauce, is usually from the husband and the father. Hey, I thought everything was fine. And, you know, as we go through it, I was like, well, you remember this incident, you remember this incident. It wasn't fine, but it, it does happen where, you know, you get a handful where like t it came outta left field, but meanwhile it's been brewing for years.

Larry: 23:23

Exactly. Well, that's probably one of those cases where, you know, he was the winner. He had to win and she had to lose, and so he kept winning thinking, Hmm, everything's fine. I'm winning. Things are going. And she stewing and stewing and realizing nothing's gonna change here. You know, I have to decide, do I wanna live like this the rest of my time? Or am am I gonna move out? That's sometimes why, you know, hubbies get blindsided.

Mike: 23:57

You know, I always say, you know, you, you weren't aware of what's going on in the house. I, I, and I'm very candid what with my clients, we've been talking about a lot about the husband, you know, pre-marriage, during marriage, and the causes. What I would like to spend a little time on is, are the children. The young children, school age, children, particularly children that are dependent on their parents. We're not talking about adult children out of the house. What guidance, what experiences can you share on making sure that the children don't fall through the cracks or are a victim of a failed or broken relationship?

Larry: 24:35

We have to understand that kids come into this world naked and naive. I like to say they don't know as children what's good, bad, normal, abnormal, or whatever. All they know is what they see going around them in their. Little life space. And that's why I said earlier, it would be incumbent upon you if you're going to marry someone to try to view what their parents' marriage looks like. Okay? Because again, the person you are gonna marry grew up in that environment, and that's what he or she learned, at least to begin with. So if you see disrespect going on or yelling and screaming going on with your perspective in-laws, well guess what? Okay. Unless someone maybe has gone to therapy or whatever, there's a good chance the the water rolls downhill and, and that's going to continue. So it's important that you and your partner discuss this, this parenting process. Now I find it, and I've been saying this for my entire career of 50 years or more, one of the most important things an adult is going to do in their life is to raise another human being. It seems to me well said. And yet the majority of people do it strictly by the seat of their pants. There's lots of books out there. Including mine. There are lots of programs out there that you can take to become educated in this important process because if you don't, like I said, even with good intentions, you're gonna kind of do it by the seat of your pants and like it or not, you're probably gonna follow much of the way you were raised yourself.

Mike: 26:54

You know, a lot of times, you know, a broken home syndrome or a loving syndrome, that's your, it doesn't make it right or wrong, but that's your norm. Can you give any examples of when you've saw, in your experience where parents unknowingly was doing something that on its face may seem helpful, but they were doing something that was a detriment to their children? The basic

Larry: 27:18

error that most parents make. Now, I'm not talking about, you know, couples who are divorcing. I'm just saying in general is that parents will tend to do the opposite of what most theories recommend. The number one thing that kids, especially younger kids, at least up to pre-adolescence anyhow, one from their parents. Is there parents' attention? Parental attention is like gold. And the question then becomes, when do most parents provide that valuable commodity

Mike: 27:56

to their child? Attention. Attention. Attention. Attention is gold. Got it.

Larry: 28:02

So the question then again is when do they provide this valuable commodity? If you haven't had any training, unfortunately what most parents do is they provide their valuable attention to their children immediately following inappropriate behavior. And when the kid is behaving appropriately, they might take a quick glance at that and go, oh, that's nice, and they walk out. And so what we end up teaching our kids. Unintentionally, of course, is it pays off to be bad. This leads to a, a, a real tenuous relationship between, you know, parents and kids. I can't tell you how many times I've had frustrated parents telling me, you know, I love my kid, but frankly I don't like him as if it's the kid's fault. But really it isn't. Truth is they fostered a lot of this. You know, when I work with parents and do parenting, one of the basic things I talk about is reverse this paradigm. If the kid is behaving well, that's when you attend to them, not when they're misbehaving otherwise, how is the kid supposed to know? You know, he's not reading or she's not reading any books. Parents haven't. Certainly the kid isn't, they don't know and they just assume this is the way it's supposed

Mike: 29:33

to be. That brings a very good point about that. I'm guilty of it sometimes also, you know, when I have three kids, when one of'em is acting out, let me come home early, address the issue, and you know what? They got the attention. When a child is not listening, particularly in their pre-teen years, what do you think is a good form? Of discipline and speaking to them that way, you stop that bad action.

Larry: 29:59

Well, of course it, it depends on the on the misdeed, if you will. Some things have to be addressed and have to be addressed well. I'll give you an example. The the child smarts off to, to mother. Now if the mother goes, oh, I, you don't dare speak to your mother like that. Okay. What message did she just send that kid

Mike: 30:25

Malvo again? Because he got the attention he wanted. He really got her growth, didn't he? Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Now I know what gets under her skin, you know? That's pretty much what, right.

Larry: 30:36

Okay. My recommendation to that mother is without saying a word, leave and go into your room and lock the door and relax and read a book,

Mike: 30:45

come dinner or not. So what I'm hearing, and, and, and, and Dr. Walman, forgive me if I'm using the wrong terminology. So if your child is acting out, showing disrespect, mouthing off, or just misbehaving, not following through, you know, missing expectations, is it better? To kind of give'em the cold shoulder, you know, am I interpreting that the wrong way? Like you, you don't want to say, don't engage, just disengage cold shoulder is, is that something you would recommend? That's, well,

Larry: 31:16

certainly. Well, I mean, again, my first book is entitled, who's Raising Whom? I outline these ideas and what I just referred to is extinction. Now again, if, if this, let's say this occurred in the kitchen and this kid wise Wises off or, or whatever, you leave and guess what? There's no dinner. There's a, a natural consequence for this. I remember, oh my oldest son, his job on Saturday was to clean the pool. I had trained him to do it. He was like 12 years old, and so he knew how to do it. He knew how to swim and blah, blah, blah. He had to do it by 12 o'clock so he could pick his time. It's not like he had to do it right. You know? 10 0 5, no, just by noon at one o'clock. There was a little league, which he loved because he was a all star, blah, blah, blah. Okay, so here it is, it's got quarter to 12 that Saturday, and he's watching cartoons with his brother and you know, and I'm waiting for him, Hey, you gotta clean the pool, and he blows the thing off. All right, so now he's blown off his chore and now it's about quarter to one. Okay, so what do I do? Can you guess? You did the chore. I cleaned the pool. That's right. I start cleaning the pool at about five minutes to one. He comes out all in his uniform and his cleats and go, dad, dad, we gotta go. We're gonna be late. We're, and I said. Josh, I'm sorry, but you chose not to do your chore. That means now I have to do it and therefore, you know, this is the consequence of, you know, not meeting your responsibilities. Well, I'm gonna be late.

Mike: 33:03

I said, well,

Larry: 33:04

that's what happens.

Mike: 33:06

I think that's good. And the reason why I said that is, you know, many times, you know, particularly with my sons where I want something, I don't raise my voice. Very rare. I raise my voice. I don't find it very effective other than. That is pissed, you know, but it doesn't get, it, it, it doesn't get the required result. Now, I do notice that I don't raise my voice a lot, so when it does raise, they recognize, okay, this is not the norm for that. But what I do is whatever they were supposed to do. I do it. That sends the message a, you know, you're not following through, you know, and I'll just stay quiet and stuff. So that's why I picked up on it, because I do the same exact thing. Lets me know Dr. Walman, I'm on the right track with the kids, at least for this example. I don't know, for everything else. Is there any insight you have if you know of divorced couples with kids and second marriages or living together and not being married, which I see is very common, you know, with, with many of my clients. Any insight that you could end on second marriages or, or almost literally living together as husband and wife without being married?

Larry: 34:15

As far as living together, yes. That, that certainly has become much more common. Interestingly though there's some data that suggests that when these couples finally do marry, usually when kids are present or become present or about to be present, the divorce rate's a little higher than otherwise, which I is, is really kind of interesting. The issue with second marriages, and that's been very well researched where the divorce rate for first marriages is between 40 and 50%. The divorce rate for second marriages when one or both of the parties have been married previously is between 60 and 70%. Wow. So you would think logically that okay, you know, you're older, you are wiser, you've gone through it already, you know, you would be smarter and things would last. Truth is, doesn't work that way. And for some of the same reasons and more so than what we talked about before. First off, many times couples fly into the second marriage, just like the first one, without doing the proper vetting. You know, no one likes to be alone, okay? You've just been rejected. You know, because you've had a divorce that doesn't feel good. Now someone's paying you attention. That feels really great, and you bring it together.

Mike: 35:50

Is there a number, like, I know for our first example, the first marriages, you said five years. Is there a number for second marriages, you know, of a likelihood of success? Or, or, or there's no data on that?

Larry: 36:02

I would say probably, again, the, the five year mark still still holds, so you got, you have the same problem of incomplete vetting and then we have the big four again. Okay. As we said before, money, sex, kids in-laws. But now think about it, you're in a second marriage and kids were involved and maybe very likely your new partner has kids too. So now you've got step kids. And now you have step in-laws and now you've got money issues. You've got, you've got alimony and or spousal maintenance or child support and so forth. Can you imagine all the complications that you have?

Mike: 36:58

Interesting.

Larry: 36:59

Yeah. And, and so, there's all this stress that comes with second marriages, and I, I saw it all the time. You know, you've got the, the kids from the, from the new parent and you know, you're not my father. I don't have to listen to you, you know, and it goes downhill real fast.

Mike: 37:19

I, I see it all the time. You know, the dynamics of a blended marriage and the new couple where they both have previous children from marriage or one has a previous, and it's just the dynamics of. I don't need to listen to you. And many times, I have many cases right now where the previous parent comes into the picture because the new partner is changing the equilibrium. I don't believe there's a one right answer for all. I think it's based on the different dynamics of the previous partner and the children and the age. But these are different factors that you know that I think our listeners need to figure if you're gonna. Go into a second marriage or a second relationship. Nevermind the first layer of our first marriage. Think about all the additional dynamics if there's children involved. Very important insight. You kind of said something that I think that every person has done, you know, and you, you refer to, you know, being rejected. You know, I've heard the term, you know, a rebound marriage. There were a rebound, there was a mistake. How can we recognize that and, and learning and forgiving from previous mistakes.

Larry: 38:30

Well, with respect to the rebound, you have to resist it. You really do. I understand it. You know, like I said, you just went through a divorce, obviously. You know, someone you once loved gave you a thumbs down, so that's hard to take. You know, your self-esteem is a little dented and so on. And, and so, it really feels good when someone's paying you attention. And, and that's okay. I mean, you can date or, or go out in groups and so forth, but we recommend at least one year. From the time of the divorce, before you even consider a new relationship, you need to take that time and I, I would suggest you also see a counselor or therapist during that time to take a look at, you know, what went on and what role you played in that divorce. Because if you don't. Odds are, remember, you're doing what your parents did and that didn't work, and now you're gonna do it again unless you get to learn something new. So counseling or psychotherapy is very valuable, particularly when you find that new person and all those complications.

Mike: 39:54

What I usually tell my clients, particularly after a long divorce, you know, there, there's no such thing. As an easy divorce, I generally feel there's no such thing as an amicable divorce. People may want to try to say that, but generally speaking, when there's children involved, when there's assets involved, when there's child support involved, when there's splitting up holidays, you know, I've seen high tension and I've seen a little low tension, but very rare, at least in my experience. You know, maybe the type of clients I'm represent where it's truly amicable and what, what I always tell my clients once the divorce is done, you know, the paperwork is submitted and I'll point to them, the errors that they made during the, take some time for yourself. Don't live in a shelter for, in a shelter. When I say that, you know, closed off, don't be so quick to rush into. A relationship again or whatever that issue was that they were dealing with. Be it a therapy or an addiction or, or, or some type of habit, you know, the past trauma that wasn't addressed. Make sure that you start addressing those issues before you move on, you know, and if you do want to go out, which is as humans, we love to be touched. So it's human nature. If you wanna go out. Go out in a group, you know, where you, you, you don't fall into a trap. And I always say that to, to many of my clients.'cause particularly I see the rebound effect, the divorce is not even finalized and they're out, you know, three days a week already. Mm-hmm. And it's not because they found somebody new. It's to mask the rejection, the mask, the frustration, the anxiety. And it should be noted. It's not, it's both I, you know, where I represent husbands and wives. That I, I don't have particular data, but I, I give'em the same guidance. Fools Rush in that old Elvis Presley song. Don't rush into the next marriage. The next relationship

Larry: 41:46

years ago I, I received training in this and I remember there was a, a family law judge doing some training, and he said that better than 80% of the time when people come in to sign their final divorce decree. They already have a new partner

Mike: 42:07

at their arm. I've literally seen it. I've told clients in the past, and, and this is important, even if you're not even divorced, if it's in family court and you're fighting over custody or some type of visitation or exit schedule, don't bring. The new partner, and I don't want to be condescending, I don't care if it's serious, if you just met them the night before hanging out or you think it's, don't bring them to court, don't bring them into that because all it does is add more fuel to the fire. And when clients say, well, it's a public building, that is absolutely correct. You know, waiting in the room. Here's what you, you're sending the wrong message, particularly when children are involved. It's one thing you want to do a divorce party and all that kind of stuff, but don't bring your new para, or for some cases, the, the para that's the cause of the divorce, took part of the proceedings. There's nothing good that comes out of it.

Larry: 43:04

Yes, you are absolutely right. As I actually say in my book on this topic, what you're doing is basically severing a contract, a marital contract. Getting a divorce doesn't mean you need to seek vengeance or show the world that you were a martyr to live with this person and so on, or or to break them financially. Or deprive them of their kids. Now, that isn't what a divorce means. A divorce means, okay, this marital contract, we've agreed to break it and let's move on from here and hopefully not

Mike: 43:44

chew up the kids in the process. It's funny you used the word as a contract. I know before many marriages in the past were seen as a contract where people got married. You know, my parents' generation, it was for financial purposes, it was to rear kids. So when you use the word contract, you think of a business model, and really that's what. Marriage is the segue to your book, and I know you made reference to it and you said you wrote eight books, but your most current book, you know, love your Child more than You Hate Your Ex. I just love the title. I go on one Naive Assumption, children Love their Kids, but I've seen action from clients and litigants where you think that while they love their kid, they hate their ex more. What inspired you for this book?

Larry: 44:29

I spent probably the last 10, 15 years of my practice in the forensic arena, and a large part of that was in the family law area and I did oh, close to a hundred custody evaluations. I was also appointed by the court many times as a parenting coordinator to work with a couple after the divorce to try to get them to be able. Communicate and so on. Plus, I was in practice overall close to 50 years, and, and so I saw this and, and saw what happened to a lot of kids caught up in divorce and it's traumatizing. It really is. Certain ages of course, are, are more vulnerable than others, but basically I would say, you know, age five to 15, that 10 year span is really hard on, on kids when they're younger than that. They don't know that much. And when they're older than that, yes, it affects them, but now they're teenagers and they're largely formed, if you will, and they're off with their friends. So it's not quite that traumatic, but still can be. There's no sense in continuing to carry that grudge against your ex. If you can help it, it's done. And for the sake of the kids, that's important for the sake of the kids working things out, behaving civilly when you're together. I've had cases where, you know, they come together at, at a school function and they end up having a big row, you know, in, in the aisle or, oh my, can you imagine how embarrassing that would be?

Mike: 46:12

And it's the child that suffers over the big disturbance. Is there any practical tip from this book and many of your other books that you could give, you know, practical advice, something actionable that families could take away from your writings?

Larry: 46:27

Well, I think I've, I've touched on a, a number of them. One vet your prospective partner. That's number one. Spend time looking into, I mean, be like a detective. Ask around and again, if you can take a look at what his or her parents are like, that's too important. As far as general parenting is concerned, catch the kids when they're good. Focus your attention when things are good, not when things are bad. Turn that paradigm around. Start praising your child and so on. And along with that, do a little reading. It wouldn't hurt. There's some great books out there on, on how to raise, and I, I've done, I can't tell you how many workshops around the country on raising responsible, resilient

Mike: 47:16

kids. That's a perfect segue. You, you have your books. How can our listeners find your books? Where are you? Please give information about your books.

Larry: 47:27

My website is top phoenix psychologist.com. You can look there and I have a lot of articles there. My books are listed there. And of course you can also go to Amazon. I do a lot of speaking and so if you're looking for a speaker, I speak on many topics. I think I've mentioned a couple of here, you know, parenting, marriage, divorce,

Mike: 47:54

Dr. Walman, you know, just to give you a mindset, your knowledge, your advice, your experience was so valuable that we actually went over and, and take it as. This is gonna be probably the longest podcast of season two because of your knowledge, and I mean it from the on behalf of my, our listeners, we would love to have you back again to talk about a forensic evaluation, to talk about mediation and all the issues and custody battles and how to do that or be an honor to have you back if you would accept our invitation again. Sure. I'd love to. There you have it, folks. We'll have Dr. Wallman back. As we said, divorce is never easy. Dr. Wallman remind us today that children don't have to become the casualties of conflict. We've heard about the four factors that somebody should look into. We'll go with finances, romance. In-laws and children. Don't be scared to start those difficult conversations with your potential spouse. Dr. Waldman, thank you so much for taking time outta your schedule and we hope we'll see you soon. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Divorce is never easy, but as Dr. Waldman reminded us today, children don't have to become casualties of conflict by learning to put kids first, letting go of resentment and focusing on healthier relationships. Parents can rewrite the story for their next generation. And as we heard, there are four common factors that any person that's gonna get into a marriage she'll look into from financial, from romantic. To in-laws and children, and also what we heard is the importance of not jumping into a relationship. Don't be the rebound relationship, address the trauma, or address the underlying issues that caused the first divorce. Thank you again for tuning in and listen in next week for our next amazing guest. Take care. Thanks for listening. This is Mike Caterer, and I'll help you and your family navigate custody disputes or divorce matters with your best interest First, you can book a free consultation with me and learn more by following me on Instagram at Mike j Caterer. I've also included a link in today's show notes. Tune in for our next episode of the brief coming next week.